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Author Topic: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change  (Read 5275 times)

Ralphis

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ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« on: February 03, 2015, 09:22:09 PM »
Effective immediately, the map played in week 2 of the WDL Winter 2015 season will be changed from MAP14 to MAP23.

Why is the map being changed?

During a practice tonight, one of the WDL teams performed an exploit on MAP14 (32in24-4 MAP09 aka "Generic Gray") that has been previously unseen in competitive play. The exploit worked in the following way: after taking a lead, a team can take the enemy flag into a teleport room with teammates. It can then become impossible to return the flag or make the players in the teleport room leave for any reason. Players teleporting in are stuck in place for a moment without being able to turn in any direction. This leaves them vulnerable to ssg fire from the team holding the flag. Even when attempting to send multiple men in, they can alternate fire. There are also 4 shells in the room - meaning they will never run out of ammo. This is a game stopping exploit that can go for a full round and is not the type of play that we ever want to see in the WDL.

What were the options?

The league was faced with three different routes to take in regards to this new information:
  • Modify the map.
  • Pick a different map.
  • Do nothing.
All six captains were made aware of the situation and acted as representatives for their teams in the situation. It was decided that the captains would pick and vote from a pool of replacement maps, or vote to keep and modify map14. Seven maps from the WDL2015 wad were ranked in order from most preferred to least preferred. MAP23 (RAGECTF10 aka "Mercurial") was selected as the most preferred map from the pool and chosen as the replacement for week 2.

Is it fair to change the map now?

There was a general consensus amongst captains that it was fair to change the map. The main points were:
  • Team availabilities are typically not even due until Tuesday night, meaning most teams are still gearing up for the week at this point.
  • All three games were already scheduled for Saturday times, meaning all six teams would be aware of and receive an equal 4 days of prep time.
  • Teams typically have at least a minimum of four days to prep in a common WDL week (the end of a week to a potential Thursday game).

Comments/Criticism

I have to apologize for not having the foresight to see this potentially game breaking bug on MAP14. After playing hundreds of games on it and seeing it played in previous league seasons, this has never been a known and used tactic. I, and others, believe it is in the best interest of the game to not have 9 minute game-breaking periods that cannot be countered. It has been mentioned that, perhaps after this season, we will take another look at the map and possibly tweak it to remove the exploit while retaining the general gameplay and spirit of the original.

If you have thoughts on the matter, feel free to vent them here and now. Thank you.

legion

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 09:47:47 PM »
what a joke

dont change a map, ESPECIALLY NOT MIDSEASON

everyone has played this map and knows how to work it

map20 has a similar exploit that can occur (slime sneaky path, just rocket people down before they can even get to you), but that can be done with a single person

Ralphis

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 10:18:58 PM »
Actually, the slime path on map20 is different for two main reasons.

1) It can be approached from a non-teleport position, meaning that the attacker is not held in place and vulnerable like they are on Map14
2) There is not unlimited ammo reserves in the map20 area like there is in map14.

I suggest you hop into a game and check this out because we watched it happen in multiple practices, we openly experimented trying to defeat the setup, but it is impossible. It cannot be beaten in any way. The players in the room have an unbeatable advantage due to teleporters being forced to look forward for a couple moments after entering and the respawning shells in the room.

You're correct that everyone HAS played the map, but it was generally agreed upon by the 10 or so people in the server that nobody has ever pulled off this exploit in such a fashion. I imagine that you'd be quick to feel the opposite way if it was your team that was put into a situation that could not be won with plenty of time left. Nobody wants to watch three guys ssg camp a teleporter for an entire round - it is bad for everybody involved.

capo

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2015, 10:47:00 PM »
This shit started Water on zan, when some dumb team picked 14. LOL. Its good map change could be changed to some more known map probably tho eh.

legion

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 11:10:57 PM »
after testing, that stupid fucking gimmick is shitty but can also be handled with some coordination

rescind your votes unless you're just completely brainless

edit: since i may need to explain my reasoning, here's how you can handle the dumbfuck tele camp gimmick:
1) grab enemy flag to ensure they do not capture it
2) find a safe place to use rockets to suicide
3) 3 man rush them quickly, with steady aim you'll be able to take out the flag carrier, or grab rockets and just spam them to death. grab armors always
4) recover flag before it automatically returns

its not going to be easy to deal with, but this is the fucking wdl. shape the fuck up
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 11:19:20 PM by legion »

capo

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2015, 11:24:44 PM »
Legion you are bad player and you should feel bad give advices like this.

HumanBones

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 02:37:13 AM »
Legion you're talking about a team consistently landing 100% of its shots to prevent the other team from getting up in the teleporter. Rockets can work, you're right. When you go through the teleporter you might even kill the guy with the flag or someone else. But if all 3 members of the other team are sitting up there, GG. We are talking about coordinated killing and ammo collection. The map is broken in the same way that JKist3 claimed dwango6 map01 was broken. My thoughts always start with "is anyone asshole enough to actually camp these areas?" and we all know what the answer is.

Modifying maps we've been playing for years is such a bad idea it makes my skin crawl. The very idea of it makes me want to go and get my back hair waxed, which would create wigs for several small African villages. The easiest decision (and one that the captains all agreed upon) is to change the map. Every team has the same amount of practice time awarded to them. There are no unfair advantages and actually as someone who groaned at playing the same popular bullshit maps I'm happy to see a newer map included in the schedule, regardless of how or why!

Water

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 06:11:09 AM »
after testing, that stupid fucking gimmick is shitty but can also be handled with some coordination

rescind your votes unless you're just completely brainless

edit: since i may need to explain my reasoning, here's how you can handle the dumbfuck tele camp gimmick:
1) grab enemy flag to ensure they do not capture it
2) find a safe place to use rockets to suicide
3) 3 man rush them quickly, with steady aim you'll be able to take out the flag carrier, or grab rockets and just spam them to death. grab armors always
4) recover flag before it automatically returns

its not going to be easy to deal with, but this is the fucking wdl. shape the fuck up

Point 3 does not work as I proved in the practice match. This only works against uncoordinated teams, but even if you scrapped point 1 and 2 and ran the teleporter, it's still impossible with three because the flag carrier can unleash the final shot.

Jwarrier

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2015, 07:59:02 AM »
Not surprising considering the recent tactical discovery.  Good map replacement!

Rude

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2015, 08:28:33 AM »
I'll admit I was looking forward to 14.  It's a shame to have to change the map now, but I agree it is necessary.  Perhaps if there were some sort of honor system or agreement to not use this tactic we could play it.  But that is just a pipe dream at this point.  I think we can all agree that a team with only 1 point, and with a long history on zandronum, will resort to any method to win, even if that method is borderline cheating.

Water

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2015, 10:21:02 AM »
I'll admit I was looking forward to 14.  It's a shame to have to change the map now, but I agree it is necessary.  Perhaps if there were some sort of honor system or agreement to not use this tactic we could play it.  But that is just a pipe dream at this point.  I think we can all agree that a team with only 1 point, and with a long history on zandronum, will resort to any method to win, even if that method is borderline cheating.

Using a players port preference is a red herring, and using 'all' is conjugating a weasel word with a red herring argument...

Jwarrier

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2015, 11:27:31 AM »
The tactic has nothing to do with a port or a team.  It is an error in the map that can be exploited, some would argue that would be no different than using SR50.  The best resolution was to change the map once it came to attention and that league administration as well as captains across the league became aware of the annoyance it would become.  The facts are this map was removed not because of a "cheat method" but because the game play of the matches would be ruined if and when that tactic was employed.  It could happen to any team and no matter the victim I'm sure everybody would agree it would suck to lose a match because of that.

capo

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2015, 11:46:45 AM »
This map (14) has NOTHING to do in pack for long time. Its worse than franks legendary shitty map or shane's first version map which was in IDL map pack earlier. No idea why 14 always stayed in. I guess something like "its not this bad for 3v3" was enough let it in for too long time. LOL

NOW DELETE ALL MAPS WITH SSG ON SPAWN AND LEARN TO BRUSH ROUTES. LOL
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 11:49:22 AM by capo »

Zakken

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Re: ATTN: Week 2 Map Change
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2015, 01:09:17 PM »
I personally wanted to just modify Map14 as it is right now, but the decision to switch to a different map was probably for the best, given the circumstances. I don't understand why anyone would give Water crap for discovering the exploit in the first place -- it is clearly the map itself that's at fault. Had it been somebody else who found it, would you be criticizing their port origins and/or team status too? I, for one, would like to thank Water and his team for spotting this not-so-subtle problem before it could hinder the actual games.

As for the new map, it's quite nice, I think. Should provide some good games. May the most adaptable teams win!